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vvirgo@hotmail.com
http://www.dssm.org
Virgo's essays can be found at:
http://www.dssm.org/Essays.htm
SENSUOUS SADIE: You are the co-founder of the Dominant
submissive Society of Manitoba, Canada (DsSM). Considering how spread
out Canada is, how would you characterize the BDSM scene there?
VIRGO: "There are actually a lot of different scenes across Canada,
and they range from being in their infancy to being quite well organized
and developed. The local scene in Winnipeg has gone through a growth
spurt over the course of the past year or two, which is a mix of good
and bad. As the community grew it was inevitable that splintering
occurred. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, because it means
that groups become more specialized and are better able to cater to the
needs of the people involved. However, animosity developed between scene
leaders, which led to the groups not having much to do with each other.
This side of things is bad for many reasons: it becomes more difficult
to muster up enough community support to run the more expensive venued
events; people start to feel like they have to pick and choose between
groups rather than just going to things that sound fun and interesting;
petty politics simply makes everyone involved look bad; and new people
basically end up in whichever part of the community they originally land
in, rather than exploring all that is out there and figuring out what
appeals to them individually."
Sadie: The rumor is that you started the group with your buddy Craig
when you were drunk on martinis one night. Considering those humble
beginnings, what have you found the most challenging about founding a
group?
Virgo: "Yeah, we had him and his slave over for a big meal on
Thanksgiving in the year 2000. We had talked about starting up a group
before then, but it was mostly talk. Well, the martini's were flowing
and next thing you know we were egging each other on and ultimately
started an Elist that was the information center for our new group. The
most difficult lesson we learned very early on is that there is often a
chasm between what people say and what they will do. We had about 40 or
50 people in the community saying that they would jump on board if we
started a forum that was focused on discussing issues related to BDSM in
intelligent ways. We emailed all of them when we started the group, and
expected people to start flooding in. Only 7 people ended up on the
list, counting Craig and his slave, me, and my own slave. Growth was
terribly slow, and people were worried that if they joined our new group
they would end up being alienated from the group that was already
around, and that runs a large event in the city. After the first 6
months we had an amazing discussion list, but less than 30 members in
total. This clearly was not enough to start running real time events,
and it took a year to build up enough support to grow past simply being
an online group. Once we hit 50 members we tried having a munch, and it
was still tough getting people out. No word of a lie, I had to phone
friends in the scene up individually and pseudo-threaten them just to
get them to come out. Even with these tactics, we had only a dozen
people there. The lesson in all of this is that growth is often slow, it
involves hard work, and there are no shortcuts in terms of community
building."
Sadie: You've written a number of humor pieces about the GOR community,
which I might characterize as being not known particularly for having a
sense of humor about their own lifestyle. I personally find your writing
on this hilarious, but then I'm not into the GOR thing either. Have any
GOR practitioners wanted to kick your butt from here to Manitoba and
back?
Virgo: "I still remember the first time I had a Gorean comment on
one of my top ten lists about Gor. He stopped me at an event, and I
thought it was trouble. He then proceeded to tell me all about how he
printed out my list and put it up on his bulletin board in his office at
work, and that he spread it around to his Gorean friends. More recently,
a Gorean in our community asked for permission to read the lists over
some sort of online Gor radio station, which I thought was a hoot.
Besides the piece I wrote about community development, the Gor top ten
lists are the pieces of my writing that are requested the most to be
reprinted by other web sites. I can't honestly say that I have always
gotten along well with Goreans that I have run across. But given the
chance, this shows that a lot of them have a sense of humour and are
able to take a bit of gentle satire."
Sadie: You have written about the experience of going from an online
BDSM lifestyle to one in real time. What would you say was the
fundamental difference you found between these two approaches?
Virgo: "You can't fake a bad connection in real life, you can't say
that your server was down if you don't want to deal with your partner in
real life, and you can't hit an 'x' in real life to get out of an
intense situation. I see online BDSM and BDSM in real life as being two
fundamentally different things. Different strokes for different folks
applies here, some people who love the idea of BDSM without the
in-your-face reality of it and can be quite happy with keeping their
kinky side online. The big trouble emerges, however, when people move
from online BDSM into real world BDSM and expect that what they learned
online is somehow relevant and meaningful in the new context. Some of it
may be, but I think it is best for people to assume they have learned
squat, that they are starting from scratch, and that they assume that
they have to re-learn everything.
"The Internet has also had a profound impact on how groups, and
individuals, learn from each another. I am not an enormous figure in the
BDSM world by any stretch of the imagination, but my articles have been
translated into several different languages. When you put this in
perspective, larger than life figures such as Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean,
and Jack Rinella are probably read by thousands of people all across the
globe. This type of influence and cross-pollination is a positive thing,
in my view. The Internet connects groups together in sometimes startling
ways. For example, and individual from this area was traveling across
Europe last winter, and she heard from people she met in the Russian
BDSM community of an Iron Dom contest that was being held in Winnipeg.
Due to the fact that she was traveling, she had no idea herself that
this event was taking place about an hour's drive from her own home. I
still have no idea what to make of the fact that kinky folks in Russia
knew more about our Iron Dom contest than our local community. Another
example of this globalism is the fact that the first installment of our
showcase event, the Distinguished Lecturer Series, was reviewed on a web
site in Germany. The review was written in the German language, and the
online translators are not fantastic, so I only got a general sense of
the content, and that it was a very positive review. Given these
examples on both an individual and group level, it is becoming
increasingly difficult to make a sharp distinction between the global,
online BDSM world and real time groups. To follow that point briefly,
most groups now use the Internet on some level in terms of advertising,
or for maintaining a group identity, or to locate and book presenters
for their larger events."
Sadie: You observed that, "People who have learned online tend
to assume that they have figured out BDSM, and are confident in their
opinions regarding issues such as what makes up a "true"
dominant or "true" submissive, or how being a Dominant is
higher up in the BDSM hierarchy than being a mere top, or how a
submissive is someone who just can't cut it as a slave." Do you
find that the online world is more or less, or the same level of
judgmental behavior as the real time one?
Virgo: "I don't know about judgmental behaviour, that seems to vary
from individual to individual. The only generalization that I am totally
comfortable in making is that online folks can get a bit testy when they
are told, while they are still online, that online BDSM is not as
intense as the real thing. I think this comes from their level of
investment, where they may have spent countless hours online, read
numerous articles on web pages, invested heavily in a relationship with
some person half a continent away that they haven't met yet (but are, of
course, planning to), and with whom they have shared and explored their
deepest desires. After all of this, hearing the phrase 'that is only
online BDSM, it isn't real' will get their dander up. The ones who
decide to check out the real life communities usually end up seeing that
there are added levels of intensity that they did not know existed, but
you can't explain this to people who have not yet made the leap into
real life BDSM.
"I think the biggest danger of learning BDSM online is that it
fosters unrealistic expectations of the lifestyle. A few months back a
newbie who was 'educated' in BDSM online decided to attend one of our
demos. This is a regular occurrence, we have a couple of new people at
each of our events. I noticed that she was watching me play during the
play party that followed, and she got quiet and introspective for the
remainder of the night. During the ride home, I asked her what she
thought of the evening. Her answer was that it was different from what
she expected. This made me curious, so I pressed a bit and asked her how
it was different. Her response was to let out a bit of a sigh, and she
said that when she was watching me play she was totally amazed that I
was having fun. In her mind, BDSM should be done by torch light, by
individuals wearing hoods and robes, who are grimacing and scowling at
each other. I'm not saying that this type of scene doesn't have a place,
but I really think that the fact that she was not aware that people
enjoy this sort of thing (after learning about the lifestyle for 4 or 5
years online) is telling. In light of this, along with talking about the
psychological, spiritual, intellectual, and physical aspects of the
lifestyle, I also make a point of making new people aware that we should
also be enjoying ourselves. That enjoyment should occasionally be mixed
with a playfulness that many people, especially those who are
inexperienced, shy away from rather than embracing."
Sadie: You write that, "BDSM is an aesthetic experience to those
individuals who are hardwired for, and predisposed towards, this
lifestyle." This might be considered to be an esoteric approach to
the scene. What do you mean by "aesthetic experience?"
Virgo: "Sheesh, that must have been me on martini juice again. The
gist of what I am trying to get at here is that the things we do,
whether it is spanking, or flogging, or needle play, all look real purdy
to those who are hardwired for BDSM. Take someone who is vanilla, and
not hardwired that way, and they see something totally different when
they see a reddened ass, or blood coming out of needle marks on a
breast. We find beauty in what we do because what we do is an expression
of our inner truths. It is sort of like the Keats poem, that talks about
beauty being truth and truth being beauty. If this still doesn't make
sense I can have a couple of martini's and take another shot at
explaining it."
Sadie: In another one of your articles, you said that, "Some
people feel that BDSM is being "watered down" as a direct
result of the growth spurt BDSM has experienced as people move out of
the kinky closet and into public communities." What's your take on
this?
Virgo: "Yeah it is watered down, but that doesn't have to be a bad
thing. The majority of people who are finding BDSM are about 28-40,
probably out of an unhappy marriage, often with kids. They go online
looking for reasons why they have certain urges and feelings, and find
that others share these thoughts. This blows them away, especially if
they have been made to feel guilty all of their lives for having strange
desires. For female submissives, they often are feeling a sense of being
somewhat out of control, as though their life is in disarray, and they
are looking for someone to instill order upon it. Males entering into
the community tend to be out for kinky sex (they figure that is what was
missing in that shitty marriage they just left or are in the process of
leaving), link BDSM and sex strongly, and tend to gravitate towards
being a dominant because they often have trouble getting past the
stereotype of what a man is supposed to be. The vast majority of people
entering into the communities start off wanting the lifestyle to be
all-encompassing, but normally end up being happy to hang out with
friends at play parties and engage in play on occasion (usually when the
kids are out). All of this is fine, there is nothing that says that
every person who enters into the lifestyle has to be totally consumed
within it. At the very least, we can teach couples who are into kinky
sex at home to be safe about it, and possibly give them new ideas."
Sadie: Kayla, editor of the Dominant's View, a publication that runs
some of your material tells me that "His focus in his own BDSM
community is on education and safety and he isn't shy about calling
bullshit when he sees it. Can you tell me about a time when you called
someone on their shit and what happened?
Virgo: "My all time favourite was a few years back. A fellow who
has no real life experience joined the group, and he was posting on our
message board as though he was immersed in the lifestyle for years and
had loads of experience. I happened to know different because I met him
for coffee early on, and we discussed the lifestyle face to face before
he even joined the group. This fellow insisted on being a total jackass
during discussions, and basically wigged out when people challenged him
or disagreed with him on any of his points. Just to be clear on this- I
have no issue with people that are inexperienced, it is pretense that
bothers me. I was a bit hard on him, basically calling on him to justify
what he was saying, and I made an effort to point out where he was
either wrong or being misleading. This led him to leave the group, which
made me feel guilty. I phoned him up, sat down with him over a cup of
coffee, and apologized from being too severe with him. He re-joined the
group, the bad behavior continued, and I eventually told him that things
are not working out and that it was time for him to leave. His response
to me was that he would form his own 'kingdom' within the community
(apparently I would not be welcome in this kingdom), and he would have
everyone flock to him. I heard that he popped up in another group for a
short time, but I doubt that he is still around at all. I have learned
from that experience, along with many many others, that inexperienced
dominants--who are very insecure about this level of inexperience, or
are not willing to admit to it--are the ones who cause the most trouble.
This is compounded by the fact that no one can ever admit that
insecurity is at the heart of an issue, so they come up with every
excuse in the book to justify for not liking someone who they see as
challenging them."
Sadie: Kayla also said that your Achilles heel, which is also your
asset, is the strength of your beliefs. Would you agree?
Virgo: "Yeah, I think that this is a fair assessment. The way I put
it is that I really do not have much of a tolerance for bullshit, and I
call it like I see it. This sort of direct approach is not really the
best thing politically, because as a general rule people do not want to
have their assumptions challenged. If I would choose to not say anything
public ally, or just smile and pretend to agree with people, our group
would be larger and we would have more people at our events. I am also
up front about moral positions. For example, I do not think that BDSM
justifies abusive behavior, and if people use the lifestyle as a shield
to 'make it ok' to be abusive then I call them on it. I prefer to deal
with people directly and honestly, which pisses some people off or leads
them to go elsewhere. For example, I tell people who are thinking about
exploring BDSM without their regular partner knowing about it, or
supporting it, that the odds are that they will jeopardize parts of
their life that they hold dear. This tends to backfire, because those
individuals almost always gravitate towards those who tell them what
they want to hear (usually in order to play with them). These
individuals usually end up getting jerked around, losing their marriage,
or home, or kids, or contact with their family, with nothing to show for
it except some hard earned experience."
Sadie: You have a real commitment to the growth of the BDSM
community, and in fact have written some thoughtful essays on the
subject. What is the fundamental belief that you have that drives your
vision around this?
Virgo: "I have a few beliefs that drive the larger vision. First,
that splintering does not have to be a bad thing. Second, it is
important to encourage new people to check out every event available and
let them figure out what they like on their own. Third, that we are all
better off if we have good working knowledge of the fundamentals of
BDSM--meaning that education is a key to healthy communities. Forth,
that people will always go where the party is-- so keeping things fun is
always the key to success."
Sadie: slave thel told me that "Virgo spends a lot of his time
dealing with the political BS that goes along with this sort of small,
and closed community mentality." This of course is a problem common
to many BDSM communities. What is your approach to these endemic
problems?
Virgo: "slave thel is my own slave and she, above all else, can
attest to the sheer volume of bullshit that I have to deal with on a
regular basis. My own approach to the problems in the community are to
keep several things in mind. First and foremost, our own group has not
been guilt free in the community dynamic, and we made our mistakes. Just
as we expect others to move past our mistakes, we have to allow other
groups to come to the same realization, and we have to get past the
mentality of 'but they did this to us' and just let bygones be bygones.
Just as we expect other groups to respect our rights, we have to respect
the rights of other groups to lay out their own way of doing things, to
make their own decisions (we don't have to like those decisions), and to
come to their own conclusions. Following these first steps, we have a
responsibility to continually check the waters to see if other groups
are willing to enter into more civil engagements with us, and to see if
it is possible to break down the barriers that exist within the
community.
"My approach to doing all of this is very direct. When I engage
with other group leaders I am very up front about what I think the
issues are, and how I think we can move past them. On a group level, we
have to find ways past the current issues within the community without
sacrificing the things that make our group unique and special. On a
personal level, I do not like the endless gossip about me, especially
when it comes from individuals that I have never met. To address this, I
am very public about my thoughts and beliefs. The way I see it is that I
would rather have people hate me, or natter about me, based on what I
have said than over lies they made up about me. The best way to solve
the issue of community gossip is to be open to providing direct and
honest answers for people."
Sadie: In comments about you, Master MB said that, "I have joked
before that he has a teaching fetish, which leads him to organize events
and demos." What is it about teaching that motivates you so?
Virgo: "This is a tough question. I think the easiest answer is
that I feel invigorated and energized when I am around individuals who
are excited about everything they see, who are enthralled by the newness
of it all, and who are exploring the wonders of the lifestyle for the
first time. I feed off of their energy, and it really recharges my
batteries. The teaching angle also fits in with my larger beliefs about
the lifestyle. Serious mistakes in the lifestyle do not usually happen
because people want to injure each other, they happen because
individuals make bad decisions due to a lack of skill and knowledge. If
our demos, workshops, or other educational events help people make good
decisions in the lifestyle than the entire community is stronger for
it."
Sadie: In one of your articles, you ask the reader to try this little
test: "Without being specific, bring up the topic of "pushing
limits, and challenging boundaries" to all of the dominants that
you know. As you do this, keep track of how many of them automatically
assume that you are talking about pushing the limits and boundaries of a
submissive." As a Dominant yourself, what are the areas of your own
boundaries that you most strive to challenge?
Virgo: "One that I think I have improved a lot over the past year
is letting other people who are organizers in the group do their thing.
We have a skilled group of people who work together to make our events
happen, and we all have our roles. I give feedback to others, but I work
hard to make sure they have final decision making authority in the areas
for which they are responsible. This is a pretty big deal to those of us
who can be control freaks. Another area that I work on, but that I have
less success with, is to leave the past in the past. I can easily let
myself wallow in the past if I let myself, which is bad because it
doesn't give people around me the chance to show the ways in which they
have grown and changed. Everyone changes, people are not static things.
Acknowledging and celebrating this process is a skill, and one that I
have to work hard at."
Sadie: In taking this idea to its natural endpoint, you write that,
"The submissive has grown by leaps and bounds, but the dominant is
in pretty much the exact same place as when the relationship started.
The submissive has become the focal point of the relationship, and
things are judged by her responses, her needs, her goals, and her
desires. The dominant becomes the Ds equivalent of a vibrator, existing
only to please the submissive." In vanilla relationships we all
take for granted that both partners need to grow together. Why do you
suppose that in D/s relationships, this is not considered to be as
critical?
Virgo: "I think most people resist change, and most people like to
think that everyone else should change to fit in with what they want.
The dominant in a Ds relationship is less likely to do the changing
because of the power exchange--s/he can force or manipulate the partner
to bend rather than challenging his or her own thought processes and
assumptions."
Sadie: I've heard a dirty little rumor that your looks intimidate the
female submissives, being that you are a large bald man with tattoos and
piercings, but that under all that you're a real "sweetie."
What's the scoop on this? Are you mushy soft under all that armour?
Virgo: "I think that is partly true. I don't suffer fools well, and
that comes through loud and clear to people pretty much at the moment I
first open my mouth. Having said that, I really do put in a lot of late
nights supporting friends, or people I care about. Once a person is my
friend there is little I will not do for that person, including telling
that person the truth when they need to hear it. As for the part about
intimidating female submissives, I have never understood it but it has
been pointed out to me in the past on several occasions. It isn't only
female submissive though, the male submissives have been known to
respond really well to my way of being. I think it is the no-bullshit
way of interacting that makes them respond in that manner, I don't know.
I always try to show manners and respect when dealing with
everybody."
Sadie: Thank you very much for chatting with me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read some of Virgo's Essays:
Stepping
into Reality
The
Aesthetics of BDSM
BDSM and Community
Development
Pushing
Limits and Challenging Boundaries
Dominant’s
View,
Editor: Kayla Kuffs (quoted here)
http://www.domsview.com/
kaylakuffs@domsview.com
If you enjoyed this interview, read more SCENEprofiles with BDSM
personalities on Sadie's website at www.sensuoussadie.com
Sensuous Sadie is the author of It's Not About the Whip: Love, Sex,
and Spirituality in the BDSM Scene. Read an excerpt at
http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0551.html. She is the founder and
leader (1999 - 2001) of Rose & Thorn, Vermont's first BDSM group.
Comments, compliments and complaints, as well as requests for reprinting
can be addressed to her at SensuousSadie@aol.com
or visit her website at www.sensuoussadie.com
. Sadie believes the universe is abundant, and that sharing information
freely is part of this abundance, so she allows reprints of her writing
in most venues.
Copyright 2004 Sadie Sez Publications
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