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There are
three interviews:
SensuousSadie@aol.com
www.sensuoussadie.com
Sensuous Sadie is a BDSM columnist and editor of SCENEsubmissions, a
free e-newsletter focusing on BDSM & spirituality. She is the
founder and leader (1999 - 2001) of Rose & Thorn, Vermont's first
BDSM group.
Cal: In January of 2002 you were quietly going about your business,
running Rose & Thorn and writing a few friendly columns on the side.
Now your writing is being published in several magazines and more.
What's this about?
Sadie: "The funny thing is that it all started when my job was
cut to part time in March of 2002. This was the same week that I
officially became the first Leader Emeritus of Rose & Thorn, a
combination which resulted in a fair bit of grief as well as a
significant increase in free time. At first I was a little disoriented,
but then I realized I had this incredible opportunity. First I learned
how to design websites, and soon had designed my own as well as several
others. It helped a lot that I have a graphic design background, which
is reflected in the original graphics on my website.
"During this time, I discovered that I have a facility for doing
interviews. I enjoy researching what other authors have written and
asking them questions about it. Naturally, I started with BDSM group
leaders, but now that I've moved away from leadership I'm concentrating
on well-known authors because they have a broader appeal to a national
audience. I am fascinated by their perspective on the scene as well as
their complex ideas about their own BDSM practice. My hope is to collect
these interviews into a compilation.
"All this writing had to go somewhere, so in addition to running
them in my own newsletter SCENEsubmissions, I started sending
them out to other magazines, both paper and online. I currently have
columns and interviews running in a growing number of publications
including the BDSM News, Prometheus, Leatherpage and
many more. There’s an updated list of these publications on my
website. It took a lot of organization because of course each
publication deserves a certain number of pieces that haven't been
published before; I didn't want any of my columns or interviews to get
overexposed. Fortunately, my experience in writing gave me a good idea
for what editors were looking for.
"I look back on the last year or so and I can see a radical
difference both in my personal writing life as well as in my personae as
Sensuous Sadie. It's very satisfying because I receive a lot of e-mail
from readers who really enjoy my columns and interviews. They comment
that my style is very validating of all kinds of BDSM expression. You
could say that being cut back on my job turned out to be a huge blessing
in disguise."
Cal: I read a quote about you that I’d like you to
respond to. Yielding, a columnist (http://www.bdsmu.com/)
said, "Sadie is possibly the most vibrant and informed individual
on the internet today. She never sleeps due to a surgically implanted
device that allows her to labor tirelessly on her newsletter, her
website, her very fascinating interviews, her BDSM writers Yahoo group,
her leadership of Rose & Thorn, and very likely 30 or 40 more BDSM
related activities I haven't yet run across. I respect her for her
strong opinions, and for being able to convey them without diminishing
the validity of other ideas." I can’t help but wonder why you do
all this stuff, and what keeps you motivated?
Sadie: "The most common misconception I’ve found is that people
think I’m making tons of money off all these projects. In fact, I have
yet to make one cent from any of it. Hopefully the book will sell and at
least pay for the cost of self publishing it. Obviously, it’s not
about money for me.
For a long time I was a writer in the vanilla
spirituality market, which was great – but I don’t think I ever
reached more than the 20,000 readers who read that particular
publication. Now I still write about spirituality, but with a BDSM
twist. Unlike the spirituality market which is well saturated, there are
many opportunities (unpaid ones) on the internet to publish my writing.
As a result, you could say that I found my niche here. There is a large
audience hungry for information, particularly for information about the
"soft" side of BDSM – the emotions, spirituality, and
relationship side of things. There are tons of "how-to" pieces
out there, but few that deal with the actual experience of being a
Submissive or Dominant.
I do have a mission, which until now I’ve never
really articulated. Over the last few years I came to appreciate the
power of community and how it validates our lifestyle. I feel that frank
discussion about BDSM is the only way to help both kinky folk and the
larger community understand that what we are doing is a healthy and
creative approach to sexuality. It’s not for everyone, but for those
of us who want to pursue it, we deserve to be able to do so without
fear.
Cal: Another quote. This one from Chris M, writer and
Emeritus Board Member of Black Rose (http://subbondage.net/chris_m/),
who also drew your snake BDSM logo: "Sensuous Sadie's website not
only offers the best collection of writings on the web examining the
intersection of the spirit and sadoerotic, but it is also simply one of
the most illuminating collections of SM writings period. Think of it as
a continuation of the essays of Mark Thompson's Leatherfolk
tailored to the cyber age and the new millennium. Simply
Wonderful!" That’s pretty high praise. The intersection of BDSM
and spirituality seems to be the focus you’ve moved into bigtime. What’s
that about?
Sadie: "That is one heck of a compliment from
Chris, especially since I have read Leatherfolk as part of the
research I’ve been doing. It’s a wonderful book. As I mentioned, I
have been interested in exploring spirituality for a long time. I’m
also working on my second book which is about BDSM and spirituality, and
you can read my introduction to this on my website www.sensuoussadie.com.
As part of my research for this I’ve been reading the many articles on
the subject, and wanted to create a place where people interested in the
subject could find everything in one place. The result is this large
section on my website with many guest authors, including Chris M.’s
excellent work.
"I am also planning on collecting these writings
into my second book. There are a few books that look at BDSM and
spirituality from a female Dominant or gay perspective, but none dealing
with this amazingly complex and intricate subject in a broad way for
heterosexuals. The themes that resonate for me have to do with using
pain as a conduit to spiritual expression, ideas that are well
represented in the work and writings of authors Fakir Musafar and Cleo
Dubois."
Cal: What's the deal with the book? Why publish your columns?
Sadie: "Fundamentally, writing is what writers do, and so I
want my message to be heard. There are plenty of books out there on how
to tie someone up or whatever. My book is more about the emotional
journey. I suppose a little bit of it is vanity as well. It's pretty
exciting to think of your writing out there in published form. I'm
hoping to reach a national audience."
Cal: Your newsletter SCENEsubmissions now focuses on BDSM and
spirituality. How did that come about?
Sadie: "The newsletter started out as a venue for Rose &
Thorn to make announcements. Over time, I started including columns,
poetry and other information and it grew to a very informative weekly
event. When I stepped down from Rose & Thorn, we decided to detach
it from Rose & Thorn because it had really become "Sadie's
Newsletter" and also it had become national in scope.
"There are plenty of books about BDSM, but for the most part,
people aren't charging down to the bookstore to buy those books. Maybe
it's because they are embarrassed or maybe they just don't feel
committed enough to the lifestyle to buy a book on it. It's easy and
anonymous for these folks to get my e-mail newsletter. There's no
commitment or cost involved. I see this as the perfect opportunity to
get these people the information they need, even if they don't know they
need it yet.
"I have a very strong belief in accessibility. If information is
hard to find, or difficult to read, it won't achieve its purpose of
communicating. The newsletter provides quality information in a friendly
and accessible format. As I was collecting those great articles on BDSM
and spirituality that I mentioned already, I started running them in the
newsletter and got very positive feedback because at the moment, there
are no other publications with this focus. On a personal note I've
really enjoyed the contacts I've made with scene people; we are a
wonderful and diverse group."
Cal: The photos on your website project a glamorous image. Is that
real?
Sadie: "When I think of 'glamour,' I imagine women in sleek
leather outfits knocking around the New York City nightlife. It's hard
to think of myself as glamorous or sophisticated because I live a fairly
quiet life, not to mention the fact that I'm living that fairly quiet
life in Vermont. I do think of myself as a sophisticated thinker, and
that is probably reflected in my writing. I have a background in
marketing, so I have a very good idea of how important it is for readers
to think I'm glamorous, and that's why my photos look the way they do.
Selling my image helps me sell my writing."
Cal: How did you become aware of your BDSM orientation?
Sadie: "I discovered my sexuality and even my submissiveness
fairly early, but of course didn't have a name for it way back in high
school. What I did know was that I wanted my boyfriend to be more
assertive with me sexually. He was submissive himself, a pattern I
discovered in my boyfriends a few years ago. I know I have a powerful
personae, and it naturally attracts submissive men. I remember making
bets with boyfriends where the loser would have to be 'slave' for the
night. Of course I lost the bets on purpose, but even so they rarely
were able to be as dominant as I wanted. This has been a real problem
for me, and I've had to consciously choose different kinds of
partners."
Cal: For the record, are you Dominant or submissive? Straight, bi or
lesbian?
Sadie: "Technically, I am a switch. However, as my experience
evolved I discovered I have difficulty maintaining a relationship where
I am Dominant. Maybe I'm just lazy, but it seems like too much darn
work. I'm guessing an attitude like that delineates this is not my
natural inclination. Nowadays, I consider myself 85% submissive, and 15%
Dominant. In other words, I prefer to submit, but darned if occasionally
I don't get the urge to bend some guy over my maple table and spank the
hooey out of him.
"Part of the reason dominance is work for me is because I'm a
highly analytical person, very goal oriented. I tend to plan out my
scenes in great detail and do something exciting and creative each and
every time. I enjoy planning a lot, but even so, this approach is
difficult to maintain in a long-term relationship. A big part of what I
get out of my own submission is the joy of release, of letting go and
turning it over. I make decisions all day; I don't want to be making
them in the bedroom.
"I consider myself heterosexual. Men's bodies have a visceral
effect on me, and that is the foundation of my sexuality. Also, I'm
something of a Don Juan. I see the beauty and sexual quality of every
man, or most of them anyway. This gift doesn't mean I sleep around
though, only that I can really see the special gift of every person I
meet. I have also had a number of experiences with women, both in
vanilla relationships and one in BDSM, mostly when I was in my early
20's. I enjoy looking at women's bodies and flirting with them, but I
don't usually take the next step into a relationship. I'm open to the
possibility however. I have an attraction to butchy dominant type
women."
Cal: Why did you change your name from Submissive Sadie to Sensuous
Sadie?
Sadie: "I called myself Submissive Sadie for many years. I
liked the name because it advertised my orientation as well as had a
nice sound. Unfortunately I often wrote from the perspective of a
Dominant, which became confusing to my readers. I decided to change my
name to express not my specific orientation, but my general approach to
life. I particularly like the name Sensuous Sadie because it's
alliterative in multiple ways."
Cal: There is an ongoing debate about whether the BDSM orientation is
genetically based, or something we choose. What's your take on this?
Sadie: "My friend Mal brought this up one evening over dinner.
He was seeing a psychologist who was convinced that the BDSM orientation
was a choice, a bad choice. The shrink was trying to convince Mal he
should go 'straight' if you will, and try to have relationships with
non-BDSM oriented women. My feeling is this: it doesn't matter a wit how
your orientation came to be or how you express it. What counts is that
we feel fulfilled and happy in the expression of our natures. If Mal
didn't like how he felt when exploring BDSM, then it's a good thing for
him to find out what it's about and create a new way of living. But for
me, I love expressing my sexuality this way. It feels whole and real to
me. That's the bottom line; if it feels good then it's okay. I don't
mean 'good' in the superficial hedonistic sense, but good on a spiritual
level."
Cal: You also edit the Reading Room at the Erotic Power Exchange
Dominion
(http://www.epedominion.com/Library/home.htm). What is your interest in this?
Sadie: "I met Lord Battista who is the Webmaster of EPE
Dominion when I was looking for a BDSM-friendly host for the Rose &
Thorn website. There are only a few kink-friendly website hosts, and
Lord Battista spent a lot of time helping me get up to speed on my newly
learned website skills. I manage the reading room there, and it's been a
great place to archive a lot of material which was first published in
the newsletter. Since I don't publish fiction in the newsletter, it also
turned out to be a great venue for stories, humor and other items. It's
a nice balance. I also have enjoyed getting to know Lord Battista who is
a remarkably grounded human being, as well as dedicated to supporting
the BDSM community in a variety of ways."
Cal: There's been a few incidents on New England Listservs where you
were flamed for your ideas as well as some of the interviews you did.
Why do you think this happened?
Sadie: "That's a very interesting question. I have given some
thought to it, and even have a little theory of my own. I am a female
leader who is outspoken, as well as a writer who has a platform in my
columns and the various places they are published. To make things more
complicated, I am submissive, something which seems to bug a fair number
of dominants, mostly men. Some feel a submissive can't be in charge of
something as successful as Rose & Thorn, which of course I think is
ridiculous. A fair number of people have problems with the female leader
thing too, although most of the BDSM groups I'm aware of have female
leaders.
"Being a writer has something to do with it, too. I'm a good writer
and I know it. Whenever you put your ideas out there, it's an invitation
for all the people who disagree with you to get their panties in a
twist. I'm considerate toward readers who respectfully disagree with me,
but I pay no mind to people who use profanity and are irrational. I
think it bugs them I don't bite, if you know what I mean.
"This approach has definitely rubbed a number of people the wrong
way, which is too bad. I guess they feel a leader should be accessible
to them in all ways, and not have boundaries. Others think I should
never make mistakes. I do make them, and when I do they're on display
bigtime. One of my weaknesses is that I really have a problem with
irrational people, and I avoid them. This sometimes causes problems, but
I haven't really found a better way to deal with it.
"Sometimes I think some parts of BDSM are a construct in certain
ways, with rules of conduct and so on. I also think of life as a
construct in that each of us creates the way we will see the world.
There are objects like an apple or a computer which pretty much have the
same reality for everyone in the sense that they are indisputable by
definition. What is interesting is how people respond and react to those
objects. To me, my computer is a tool to go about my daily life. To
another person it's something to be feared. Same object, different
response.
"This same difference in response happened when I made decisions
for Rose & Thorn. People would do hurtful and obnoxious things, but
I soon realized their actions have to do with their own fears, and are
not about me. I have learned to not take things personally, not just on
the superficial level but in really believing and understanding that
their reactions are about their own perspective. As a result I can
usually respond in a rational way, even as I detach from the emotions
swirling around. My life construct helps me understand that people come
from their own experiences in their reactions to me.
"The bottom line is that I have very strong boundaries, and I know
who I am. I have high expectations about my communications with people
in that they be respectful and rational."
Cal: Why did you start Rose & Thorn of Vermont?
Sadie: "In June of 1999 I had been with my partner Ryan for
about two and a half years. Ryan was what I call a 'cheerful Dominant'
for his lighthearted and joyful approach to dominance. He's an artsy
type with a sexy streak of femininity. When he decided to move south I
was pretty bummed because I wasn't really in the mood to start dating
again. Frankly it took me a while to find Ryan, and dating Dominants can
be arduous. A lot of them aren’t really dominant; they're just plain
pushy.
"One morning as I was sunbathing, I came up with the idea to create
a BDSM group. I'd been to a few munches and things like that, but the
groups always disappeared after a few months. It wasn't for lack of
interest, but because the leaders weren't very organized. Running a BDSM
group is not about BDSM, but about running a business. I figured it
would be a snap because I know a lot about business, and I'm very
organized. I had this list of people who'd contacted me over the years
I'd been single, so I sent out an e-mail and got the ball rolling. So I
suppose you could really say it was enlightened self-interest to start
with. It was later on that I developed a sense of the group as something
which was bigger than just me, something about building a community.
"People often thank me for having started Rose & Thorn because
it freed them to explore their orientation. My response is that I didn't
really do it for them, I did it for me. That's not me being ingenuous
either. In a way, everything you have to do has to be for yourself. It's
not that people don't appreciate what I do, but I faced a fair bit of
criticism when I was in the leadership role. People often thought that
Rose & Thorn policy was my personal policy as if I was persecuting
them personally. So all along I've tried to keep in my mind that I'm
acting out of my own best interest. My sense of self is connected to my
spiritual self, so when I say I did it for me, it was in the more global
sense. I believe we are all connected on a soul level."
Cal: How did your leadership inform your BDSM practice?
Sadie: "Getting involved in the community did change my
personal practice of D/s. Before Rose & Thorn, I dated a lot of
dominants I met on the Internet. I gained a good bit of experience from
dating so many men, who varied from complete novices to experienced
players. I only got involved with a few of them, but having so much
choice helped me recognize my value in the scene both as a woman and a
submissive. I had many more choices than most men in the scene, and this
awareness meant I didn't have to accept the first Dominant who happened
along.
"Part of what gets submissives into trouble, especially in the
beginning, is that they're so desperate to experience BDSM, they get
involved with just about anyone who rings their bell. A dangerous
proposition.
"The best part about being involved in a community is the sense of
the big picture. Having met literally hundreds of dominants, I have a
very good idea of what's real and what's not. I've also become much more
careful about who I play with. In the beginning, I would sometimes play
with a Dominant just because he turned me on. I soon discovered that
just like in vanilla relationships, lust alone is insufficient to
maintain a relationship.
"Unfortunately, a lot of people are attracted to the BDSM lifestyle
because of its dramatic side: the role playing, the power exchange, the
clothing. I've met many dominants, particularly male ones, who use BDSM
as a sort of cover for their inability to connect on an emotional level.
In the beginning, I was fooled by dominants who were good looking, had
charisma, dressed well, and had a 'Dominant' personae. I soon realized
these things are easy to fashion. Real Dominance is a deep and visceral
thing, something, which has nothing to do with the trappings of BDSM.
Being able to recognize these differences has been the most useful skill
I've developed.
"One of the challenges I've found is that the mantle of leadership
can be intimidating to potential partners. Part of it is that anyone who
shows up as my date at local events is bound to get a lot of attention.
This worked out pretty well for the two submissives I've had in the last
few years. However, I get the feeling that for the dominants I've dated,
the public thing is a bit harder. After all, when I'm in leadership
mode, I'm a bit dominant myself which can cause a problem with
competitiveness. I expect some of it has to do with the fact that it
took me nearly three years to attend a public event with a Dominant for
the first time, and so it naturally attracted a fair bit of attention.
It's a very strange thing, but I'm well aware that people gossip about
me, presumably because of my leadership role. That puts a lot of unfair
pressure on any Dominant with whom I get involved, something along the
lines of 'Gee, who is this guy who can actually dominate Sadie?' The
reality of my submission is that I love to give it up, but it's hard for
outsiders to see because of my outgoing personality."
Cal: Why did you step down from your leadership role with Rose &
Thorn?
Sadie: "The funny thing about leadership is that people assume
there must have been strife of some kind. It's really quite unfortunate,
but understandable when you hear about some of the dramatic coups
happening in the leadership boards of other BDSM groups. I'm proud, and
admittedly relieved, that Rose & Thorn's core group is an integrated
and cohesive group.
"In interviewing other leaders I discovered there are two schools
of thought on leadership of BDSM groups. Many of the leaders believe in
the dictatorship approach or 'benevolent dictator' as I always thought
of myself. Others believe it's important for there to be a board where
responsibility and change is voted on by many, including sometimes the
community involved. The difficult part of this approach is that egos and
power politics are common and can destroy a group. I feel the one leader
approach is more effective, but maybe that's only because it's the way I
did it. I do believe that once a group grows to a certain size, a board
is needed to manage the complexities of a larger organization. I found
running the actual group to be pretty easy. I'm very organized and had
it down to a system which functioned efficiently.
"What I wasn't getting from leadership was connections with smaller
groups of people who were of a like mind. I take a spiritual and
emotional approach to BDSM, and I wanted to spend more time with people
who took that same approach. I also felt that if I was not in a
leadership position, I might be able to express my submissive side a
little more in public. It's quite impossible to be even remotely
submissive when you are in charge of a complex organization. Now that
I'm free to do what I want, I can explore this part of myself a little
more."
Cal: How has your life changed since you are no longer leading Rose
& Thorn?
Sadie: "The biggest difference is that the drama quotient has
gone from about 95% to 5%, something which I very much appreciate. When
you are a leader, you have to reply diplomatically to everyone whether
or not you like or respect them. As a writer, I only have to please
myself. If someone, or a particular publication doesn't like what I
write, I simply move on to another publication.
"I've also discovered that coming out to friends is easier. In the
past I not only had to explain not only BDSM but the idea that there
were groups, and that I was leading one. Nowadays I just say that I am a
sex columnist, something which people are already familiar with through
the writings of authors like Susie Bright. In other words, I now
identify primarily as a sex columnist rather than a group leader.
"Interestingly, I was so focused on work for a while there that I
spent nearly a year being celebate. It's a little amusing really that I
was writing about sex and relationships but not having any. I do believe
that there are periods in life when you focus on one thing or another -
work or relationships or family. This was my work period. I could have
had a lover if I wanted one, but other things were more important."
Cal: What are your hopes for the future of the Vermont community?
Sadie: "My main interest is in seeing Rose & Thorn and the
other local groups grow and prosper, which they are clearly doing. We
have an extremely competent management team now in charge, and I feel
confident they will continue to do a great job.
"I've been quite thrilled that the Vermont Society of Kink started
up here about a year ago. Having another group takes a lot of pressure
off of Rose & Thorn to be all things to all people. I'm hoping the
community continues to grow, and that eventually we have a number of
groups all working together. I know that can be a challenge, because I
see the strife happening in some other states. Still, I'm hoping we can
avoid those situations, and we've certainly done a good job so far.
"Even though I don't generally participate in play parties, I'd
like to see more of them happening locally. I think they are a great
venue for people to learn from each other. It's a challenge since
Vermont has such a small community and we have a limited number of
experienced players, many of who don't have the facilities or the
interest in hosting play parties.
"I've always been focused on making connections between our
community and the larger BDSM community of New England. I hope we
continue to nurture those relationships, because it's the connections
with the broader community which create a safe atmosphere to explore our
own orientation."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sensuous
Sadie is the author of It's Not
About the Whip: Love, Sex, and Spirituality in the BDSM Scene (http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0551.html).
She is the founder and leader (1999 - 2001) of
Rose
&
Thorn
,
Vermont
's first BDSM group.
Comments, compliments and complaints, as well as requests for reprinting
can be addressed to her at SensuousSadie@aol.com
or visit her website at www.sensuoussadie.com. Sadie believes the universe is abundant, and that sharing information
freely is part of this abundance, so she allows reprints of her writing
in most venues.
Copyright
2003 Sadie Sez Publications
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