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*More photos after interview
Robert W. Davolt, (1958-2005)
SENSUOUS SADIE: You've been writing your LeatherPage column for about five years now. Do you ever run out of ideas? Or is it more that you have to tape your fingers together to give yourself a rest? ROBERT DAVOLT: "I've been writing columns for over 27 years now and this is really by far the easiest for several reasons. First, it is about the community that I live in, socialize in and work in. Every day I am presented with new story ideas. Second, because I set my own deadlines rather than being chained to a printing schedule. Even so, I'm usually at least three or four columns ahead. "Joe Gallagher (the publisher of the www.LeatherPage.com ) is great to work with. He has never censored me, even when I directly disagree with him. I have complete freedom to explore any subject without worrying about clients, sponsors, advertisers or editorial boards like I have to with my more commercial work. My column is very different from the others on the site, so it is an excellent match of material and medium." Sadie: Your column reaches about 3,000 readers a week through LeatherPage.com. What kind of feedback do you receive? Which of your articles get people the most worked up? Robert: "I have received responses from all over: Belgium, Thailand, Canada, Australia, South Africa and across the US. I don't know if I get people 'worked up' or not, but what I write seems to strike a personal chord with some. I often get folks writing me, 'I can't believe you wrote that about me!' To which I always reply, 'I wasn't actually thinking of you at the time but thank you for sharing.' "My most treasured feedback recently was from a young leatherman who complained that he had seen nothing but stern, serious faces and fundraisers since becoming involved in our community. He said, 'Thank you for giving us permission to have fun again and for helping us laugh at ourselves.' I hope I make people think and give them a chuckle at the same time so the process is not too painful." Sadie: You were the publisher and editor of Drummer magazine for three years. For those unfamiliar with the magazine, can you tell us a little bit about your work there? Robert: "Drummer was unique in every way. It was an institution among gay men into leather/SM of almost cult status. It included the magazine which published from 1975 to 1999 (plus several spin off magazines) and the Drummer contest which in the beginning was one of the most brilliant marketing exercises I have seen. "The International Drummer Contest kept us face-to-face with our audience all over the world. It provided us with models that were reflective of that audience and atypical of the 'porn model' type. It enlisted titleholders, sponsors and participants as loyal subjects in the Drummer empire– a near perfect symbiosis for almost 25 years. "There have been many 'leather' magazines aimed at gay men. Mostly straight or vanilla porn publishers that threw a little cowhide and maybe some rope on the models and called it 'kink.' This was the first that was ours – imaged, written, published, financed and purchased by men in our community. We weren't beholden to anyone and if there was a subject you couldn't find anywhere else, it would be on the pages of Drummer magazine. And it was more than just porn; it was news, technique, and safety, interaction that was just for us. There was a sense of communal ownership with Drummer that was both an asset and a challenge to running the company. "In the end, the momentum Drummer built was squandered shamelessly. Probably best not to try and tackle that subject here and now, but the 'long sad version' of Drummer's ignoble end is the subject of my book: 'The Last Weekend In September' (or, as Joseph Bean has nicknamed it: 'Die GotterDrummer-ung: Twilight Of The Odds')." Sadie: What other projects are you working on right now? Robert: "I've been working on this book (about Drummer) for a year now, but to be honest, after a career of writing ad copy, press releases, reports, articles and columns, a book-length manuscript was rather intimidating. Then I was approached by several publishers who wanted the story and one of them said 'Look, you have already written a book. Add up the columns you have written in just the last few years.' When I did, it was a pretty good-sized book-length manuscript– which now they are interested in publishing as an anthology. "OK, so now I'm working on two books. I'm hoping at least one will release early next Spring." Sadie: In describing yourself as a 'short, middle-class, middle-aged, blue-eyed, blond, skeptical, Western' leatherman, you comment that you're attracted to people who are different than you. What kind of men do it for you? Robert: "One's tastes change over the years. Eventually you find yourself chasing the ones who look slow enough to get caught. "I've always been a 'novelty junkie.' I love new ideas, unique concepts, innovative gadgets and meeting new people. Something unintentionally extraordinary, as opposed to being desperately and affectatiously shocking. Accents have always intrigued me. Different educational and cultural backgrounds. Dark hair, dark eyes. But more than just a physical type, it is a light that shines in a man's eyes– perhaps a mischievous sparkle, maybe insatiable curiosity and maybe just a love of people and conversation. Whatever it is, it indicates that someone is home, alive and thinking inside." Sadie: You are a resident of San Francisco, surely one of the most active BDSM communities in the world, but you have also spent time in the Midwest. How would you describe the leather community in San Francisco? How was your experience different in the Midwest? Robert: "San Francisco is, well...San Francisco. There is really no other place like it and my experience here has been far from normal. "Most people come to this city and have at least a while of quiet anonymity to get settled in. I had all of four days before I was 'outed' as the new guy at Drummer and a target for every problem the community had had with the company for the past 20 years. That experience really set some of my relationship with this community to this day. "While other places are still fighting for a place at the table, here in San Francisco the main problem is what to do with the position(s) we have achieved. Where do we go from here? These are not questions faced by many other communities. "In the smaller towns and cities of the Midwest, if we had one bar that was 'leather-friendly' we were lucky. We clung to brother or sister and looked hard for common interests in each other that we could share. We didn't have the luxury of being so specialized, so choosy and so exclusive. In many places leathermen still fight a level of intolerance from outside enemies; here in San Francisco we have won the latitude to fight among ourselves." Sadie: You are a lover of tradition, and yet you seem to be comfortable with questioning some of the "rules" that abound in the BDSM community. What are your feelings about the changes in how the "old guard" is viewed? Robert: "For a community to remain relevant, they must keep up with the times. You can't live on nostalgia and some of what people think of as old guard is just outdated. Another serious flaw is that everyone has their own definition of old guard– not only different from every other definition, but what they insist is the one, true, only correct version and all else is blasphemy. "The problem here in the gay men's community is a classic generation gap because of the horrendous losses we suffered in the mid-to-late 1980's. Instead of guys being introduced to the community by men just three to five years older than them (like I was), I have men 15 to 20 years my junior expecting me to show them the way. We don't share the same music, popular culture and many times don't even speak the same language. They have an artificial view of what old guard was or should be– like found scripture from an old copy of Mr. Benson or The Leatherman's Handbook. "I also believe that a leatherman is a rebel. That was certainly part of my old guard experience and maybe my questions are a remnant of that rebellion. And what is more exciting: A slave who submits because they love submission? Or a rebel who is subdued and submits to the rule of a superior out of love and the acknowledgment of conquest?" Sadie: You have probably observed much of the shift of BDSM from a primarily underground gay territory to something you can practically purchase a mall store. What do you think of this pretty radical change? Robert: "I have never understood this idea that leather/SMBD and our community exists in a vacuum. We are affected by the same elements of time, culture, power and human dynamics that the rest of the species endures. "What has happened to sex, sexual images, morality, authority in mainstream American culture? The Starr report featured copulation with cigars on the inside section of the Sunday paper, just a few pages away from the comics my father used to read to me as a child. The women's magazines that my mother used to clip recipes from now have articles like Are You Getting the Right Sort of Orgasm? The Internet has changed our access to sexual information for all time. "What I consider more amazing is our reaction to all of this. Some cry loudly for it all to go away, for a return to darkness (Yeah, like anyone could stuff that cat back in the bag). Some are just bewildered. Some are busy burrowing a sub-basement on our little dungeon world to salvage some of the ritual and forms that only thrive in the dark and which make us uniquely us (and if that gets flooded with light, a sub-sub-basement). Some consider this a sign that we have won the fight for sexual freedom. Some are cashing in. Sadie: We were joking about coming out as a straight, BDSM practitioner, but what about the issues between het and gay branches of the community? "Just remember that the journey of leather/SM for gay men (certainly a few years ago) and straights are very different. There seems to be more of a political element to the gay experience. "You see, a gay man out of leather looks pretty much like a straight guy out of leather. They can fairly easily pass for normal. So, once upon a time, when a gay man came out and no longer wanted to look or be taken for straight, he had basically two choices: A dress or chaps and a vest. His leather jacket might just be a reaction against the image of a gay male as a wilting pansy. A friend of mine calls this the James Dean or Uncle Miltie choice that many of us faced. "For many, putting on leather was a very political act of defiance which risked their job, their family, their friends, their physical security and even their lives. Thankfully it isn't so much anymore, but coming out was an act that would often cut you off from everything that you once found familiar and which used to define you. This is why you meet many gay men who may be socially or politically involved in the leather/SM community but who may practice routinely vanilla sex. This makes coming out for straight folks much less harrowing, but also much less imperative. "From my experience, gay leathermen have more problems with the mainstream gay males. We always want to drag our straight, transgendered or bi brothers and sisters along to gay functions and we get asked by other gay men, What are THEY doing here? Perfectly understandable question– given gay history– but we are in a position to just smile and say, It's OK, they're with us." Sadie: Being a titleholder is an important rank identifier in the gay BDSM community, and yet in many communities outside San Francisco the idea of leather titleholders is not that well known. What are your feelings about what titleholders bring the community? Robert: "First, understand that titles were always secondary to the contests that create them. Before the internet, really even before national magazines caught on, leather contests brought the gay men's community together in one place at one time to compare notes, swap stories, teach each other and tie each other up. Although there were local and regional events, parties and weekend bike club runs, it was the contest that first gave many of us a chance to interact in person, internationally, on a large scale. It was the gathering, not the contest. "Like spent fuel from nuclear reactors, an unexpected byproduct was a hell of a lot of guys running around with names like Mr. Topanga Canyon Leather and Mr. Wazoo Leather which glowed with a radioactive half-life long after their year was over. There was some talk of taking all the ex-titleholders and burying them under a mountain in Utah. I believe Utah objected. "Seriously, many titleholders have made positive contributions as community organizers and fundraisers. They are often a visible icon that the community can rally around. The trouble comes when they get carried away and try to lead or represent this rambling, diverse and dysfunctional tribe that has worked so hard to prove that anarchy is a viable form of governance. Just because you happen to be at the head of a mob does not mean you are leading it – you might just as well be trying to outrun it." Sadie: You've commented that many ex-titleholders are bitter, perhaps because of the isolation. What isolation do you mean? What's the attraction then? Robert: "It usually happens this way: A guy without much real experience in the community or as a player decides to be a contestant in a title. Maybe it just looks sexy to him, maybe he wants to help out and thinks that he needs a title...whatever. Everyone seems to have their own reasons for seeking these damned things. "He wins the contest. All of a sudden, he is expected to know everything. He is expected to put on fundraisers and events as if he is a professional event planner. He is expected to be adept at publicity, SM safety, crisis management, public speaking, politics and know every resource and individual in town. And if he doesn't, he is pilloried in the press, in chatrooms and by the gossip circles. He can't ask for help or show any sign of weakness. He's like the missionary who the natives think is a god and once the natives see him bleed, he's toast. "Fortunately, a few communities actively back-up their titleholders with resources, training and mentors. But most just toss them to the wolves, which quickly leads to an embattled, frustrated, isolated, adversarial and bitter titleholder by the time he steps down." Sadie: In 1997, you invited the first transgendered leatherman to judge an international men's contest, saying that, "When you think about it, few men have to face and wrestle with issues of gender and masculinity to the extent that female and transgendered members of our community have." What was the response to your decision at the time? Do you think things have changed since then? Robert: "At the time there were some rumbling complaints. "In 1999, Drummer was essentially broken up and sold for parts. The rights to the contest (which I had turned into a profitable asset) were leased to a group in Pittsburgh, whose stated purpose was to reverse some of the excesses of inclusion that Drummer (meaning I) had made. Judging panels, as well as other elements of the contest, became much more conservative. "Fuck 'em. Other people can make whatever decisions they want when they have to run an international company and contest. When I found myself in that position, I made mine to the best of my conscience and ability and I stand behind every decision." Sadie: In writing about race and BDSM you're treading on some delicate territory. What are some of the issues that you want to bring to the table? Robert: "Mostly that the territory should not be that delicate. "It is very necessary territory to explore, so let's just bite the bullet and go there. There have been charges of discrimination and prejudice lately, so we need to know who, where and how. If it is true, we need to figure out what can be done about it. If it is not true, then those folks need to shut up." Sadie: You have asked, "How much does one's racial identity, gender, age, language, religion, cultural bias, one's appearance, one's Catholicism or Protestantism or other individualisms impact on the dungeon? " Perhaps we'd all like to think that it doesn't, but clearly there is a majority of white, upper middle class, computer literate people in the scene (broadly speaking). To what do you attribute this? Do you think this will change? Robert: "And years ago you would have added 'opera buff' and 'urban dweller' to the profile as well. Pshaw. "This reminds me of the person who dismissed all leatherfolks as drunks because his only contact with the community was through bars and all the folks there were– guess what?– drinking. If our main contact is through the white community, through the medium of computers, that tints our impression. Since we are still in part an underground community, it is easy to get a distorted view as we peer down into the catacombs. "In fact, as I have traveled the country and seen bars, clubs, fraternities, organizations and individuals, I have seen leatherfolk in nearly every ethnicity, class, culture and educational level. It's true that they don't always mix freely, and in some places what appears to be the community power structure can seem a bit monochromatic, but I don't think the statement accurately reflects the total of players who are out there." Sadie: You've commented that you don't check someone's color at the door when choosing partners. Similarly, I've heard many bisexual friends say that they fall in love with the person, not the genitals. Where would you say that you draw that line, since obviously as a gay man, you "check the genitals" when choosing partners (if you'll pardon the expression)? Robert: "George Bernard Shaw once said about writing, 'You must not suppose, because I am a man of letters, that I have never tried to earn an honest living.' "I have always considered my leather/SM life as a journey, not as a finite destination. One is always exploring, learning new paths and meeting new traveling companions in the process. So, just because I am walking one path now, you cannot assume that I have not tried many other paths in the past. One simply finds that a certain direction, route and mode of travel is preferable. "The assumption of your question is that if one 'checks, ' it is for the purpose of finding some criteria for rejecting the applicant. Perhaps that is what I react to, so let me just say that genitalia is among many things that I 'check' but that no one element guarantees automatic dismissal at all times. I have been around the banquet table enough times to know what I like, however." Sadie: On the subject of BDSM and spirituality you've commented that, "Leather sexuality and leather spirituality are very powerful and intensely personal things. Trying to share one's personal spiritual convictions can be much too intimate and embarrassing even to someone who has been known to casually drink a cocktail while the man next to him takes a fist to the elbow. And that is perhaps as it should be." Why do you feel that this is something better not discussed? Why not explore and ask questions together? Robert: "Ask the folks in Northern Ireland or on the West Bank how spirituality can be a uniting, calming and edifying forum for discussion. Ask Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist church in Topeka how their spirituality fosters tolerance and understanding. "I don't say it is a subject not to be discussed. I simply say that if it is not brought up, I, for one, will not miss it and there should be no shame in avoiding the whole damn thing. At the very least– like mixing and packing dynamite– 'BDSM spirituality' should be brought up under very controlled and appropriate conditions. The majority of people simply do not know how to participate in that discussion and in my experience, the exchange quickly slides towards volatility, intolerance and irrationality. "You might think this is a necessary discussion like the one discussed above regarding race and culture. I disagree. One chooses what to believe and how much those beliefs are shared with and/or affect those around you. You do not choose your race. If you must, let's call it a matter of priorities: After we settle some basic, real-world issues, then we'll get to the metaphysical." Sadie: One of your columns talks about leather fashion and how it does not make a person a leatherman or not. This reminds me of a recent quote by Jack Rinella, "Just wearing black leather does not make you Leatherfolk, any more than wearing wool makes you a sheep." Assuming you don't know a person and have to judge them by their clothing alone, what would you look for? Robert: "One in always judged by appearance, whether going to an interview in a suit and tie or a dungeon party in a vest and chaps (Jack, being from Chicago, ignores the fact that there was a long tradition of brown leather and cowboy gear in the early community here in the West.) But what one wears is never as important as how one wears it. "I look for people who are comfortable in their clothing and in their own skin. Many times I see guys in leather who look like a kid in their first cheap tuxedo– uncomfortable, stiff, out-of-place. They seem to be walking one direction while their brand, new leather jacket is heading somewhere else. Other men look like they were born in their clothes, be it full leather, a full dress uniform or full tie and tails. Unpreened, unpretentious, unstudied, unhurried." Sadie: Is there anything else you'd like to share with our readers? Robert: "Just that our community– socially, politically and sexually – is still a fascinating thing for me after over 20 years. I am always being introduced to something new – as long as I remain open to continuing my education. Nowhere else can you appreciate the juxtaposition of pleasure to pain; fear to peace; beauty to squalor; bondage to freedom; discipline to wildness; power to helplessness; cruelty to love. Ours is not an easy, uncomplicated, tidy world. There are no neat, one-dimensional, universal answers to questions about our relationships to individuals or to the greater family/community/tribe/subculture/whatever. Some assembly required. "It's kind of like the Italian railways: We are not ever guaranteed when or how we will arrive at a destination. We are not even guaranteed that there is a final destination or that it will be exactly the one we planned – but who cares? The ride, the view and the traveling companions are magnificent!" Every individual is a universe. Distinct in their
own culture, evolution, philosophy, language and perspective. Life is a
fascinating voyage of discovery among these innumerable worlds. Sadie: Thank you for chatting with me! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sensuous
Sadie is the author of It's Not
About the Whip: Love, Sex, and Spirituality in the BDSM Scene (http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0551.html).
She is the founder and leader (1999 - 2001) of Copyright 2003 Sadie Sez Publications
Please click on the thumbnails to
see more photos
Robert Davolt (past positions)
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