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http://www.diversifiedservices.biz/home.htm
john@diversifiedservices.biz
Dr. John Warren has been in the Scene for over 30 years. He is an
educator and lecturer in the Scene and the author of five books: The
Loving Dominant, Torquemada Killer, Safe Sane and Consensual, Murder at
Roissy and The Brat. He is the founder of Boston Dungeon Society and the
manager of Diversified Services, which offers a variety of BDSM oriented
toys, books and other products.
SENSUOUS SADIE: Many people think of you as one of the founding
fathers of the BDSM scene, and in fact you started playing in 1964 and
have been an active member of the public scene since around 1985. What
would you say are the biggest changes in the community? Which ones are
good, and which ones are bothersome?
JOHN: "I think the biggest change is that in 1964 there was no
community at all. Even what people have come to call The Old Guard in
the gay community was mostly small groups with little or no connection
to each other. For the heterosexual people interesting in what we have
come to call BDSM, there were only a few contact magazines, most of
which were very limited geographically, and even these were largely
aimed at the swinging population. Even now, I'm reluctant to use the
word "community" to describe us except in the most general
manner. After all, the phrase BDSM was intended to cast a wide net
bringing together the stay-at-home/play-at-home, the attention sluts of
the party/convention circuit, the people who occasionally spank their
partner and those who like to style themselves 24/7 and everyone in
between. Obviously, this group doesn't share a lot of things. Heck, we
don't even come close to playing alike, and that's the point were we
come together closest.
"However, there are a lot more of us admitting our interests, and
we have a lot more information with which to evaluate risks. Those are
certainly upsides. I'm sure some people would have a long laundry list
of downsides, but allowing for the increase in population and the
greater ease in communicating, I'm not sure I'd agree. The One-True-Way
contingent can be annoying, but thinking back, I think they have become
much less influential. After all, in the Bad Old Days, most of us were
one-true-wayers. We couldn't help it. Without a way to share
information, we all thought that the way we were doing it had to be the
right way. Damn, it was the only way. We didn' t know any better.
"The confidence people and the people who play with other's
emotions are certainly more common. The anonymous nature of the Internet
cultivates that. However, they existed way back when. In some ways it
was worse because blackmail was a very real possibility. In today's
society, we forget that people were sent to jail for exchanging
personal, consensual photographs back in the 60's. Many states treated
adultery as a crime and BDSM people were seen as actual or potential
murderers. Confidence game were very common. I recall one woman in
California responding to an advertisement I had written with an offer to
fly to North Carolina to be my slave if I'd pay her airfare. She
included a picture which I recognized having been copied from a
magazine. If 10 percent of a population is dishonest. Increasing the
population by an order of magnitude means a comparable increase in the
number of bastards.
"One thing has happened that concerns me. Back when we were
isolated groups and couples. There was little need or even opportunity
for one-upmanship. People were usually pretty considerate of one
another. This does not mean they were more noble or anything like that,
there just wasn't that many of us at any one place. Today, the 'I'm more
experienced than you' and 'I'm safer than you' crowd is loud and
boisterous. It's important for people to remember that by pushing
someone else down does not raise the pusher one iota. Safety is
important but it best put forward by teaching rather than attacking
individuals. Experience is important but sometimes the best partner can
be an aware and empathetic novice."
Sadie: You are the founder of the Boston Dungeon Society. What did
you find most satisfying, and most challenging about your leadership
there? Are you still involved on a leadership level?
John: "No, I'm very proud to be 'just a member.' My model for
public services is Cincinnatus, a retired Roman general who was plowing
his field when approached by Senators offering him absolute rule. He put
down his plow, took over the Empire and ruled it for several years,
correcting many of the things that were wrong. When he was satisfied
with the Empire's condition, he resigned and returned to his plowing.
Back in 1992, Libby and I realized there was a need for an organization
like BDS so we started it. However, it was always our plan that
eventually it would become a member-run organization. It took almost ten
years to get the organization stable enough with a large enough treasury
so it could survive the inevitable problems. However, in the last two
years of 'our' BDS, we recruited and trained a Service Board that
eventually became the corporation's board of directors. Once they were
in command, we stepped back and let them run their show."
Sadie: When you first wrote The Loving Dominant in 1991, there
was nothing in print for heterosexual BDSM players. Today that are tons
of books, not to mention the Internet, and in fact I have heard people
complaining that there is "too much information." What would
you recommend to novices in terms of getting acquainted with the
lifestyle (aside from reading your books of course!)
John: "Actually, Jay Wiseman, beat me to print by over a year.
Fortunately, his SM101 wasn't available on the East Coast. I'm not sure
I would have written Loving Dominant if I had known there was
another excellent book out there. At that time, there was significant
doubt that there was enough interest for two such books. Boy, were we
wrong! As you note, now there are dozens of books. These, of course, as
you note, are extremely valuable resources. However, books are only one
way for people to learn. I'm a big supporter of offline groups,
particularly those like BDS, TES, Black Rose and others whose primary
focus is education. Not only are their classes wonderful places to learn
but since they attract the more serious practitioners and so are
excellent places for people to meet others. Another good learning venue
are the regional and national conventions like Ohio Leatherfest and
Black Rose. They can sometimes be a bit overwhelming but they provide a
very rich learning environment."
Sadie: You have written two non-fiction and three fiction books, as well
as numerous articles. As a writer, is there a different experience for
you between writing fiction and non fiction?
John: "Fiction writing can be a unique experience since the writer
is essentially creating a special world. Sometimes the characters can
take on a life of their own that is amazing. I recall when I was writing
a scene in Torquemada Killer centered on the seemingly vanilla detective
during which she visits a professional dungeon. I had planned for her to
discover submissive tendencies. Imagine my amazement when she became a
domme! It was as if I were reading the scene rather than writing it.
That sort of thing never happens in nonfiction writing. However, the big
enjoyment in nonfiction is getting a chance to explore things in detail
as well as helping others do scenes that are both exciting and
safe."
Sadie: Do you get turned on writing your own erotic fiction?
John: "Actually, most of the time I'm writing about something that
has already turned me on. Many of the scenes I write are actually
fictionalized versions of scenes I've taken part in. However, the
memories are fun to relive."
Sadie: There are lots of websites that sell BDSM paraphernalia, why
did you start your business Diversified Services? What do you offer that
is unique?
John: "Actually, since I'm a reseller rather than a crafter, I
doubt that anything I sell is unique. However, there aren't many places
that have as wide an assortment."
Sadie: How would you describe your personal philosophy regarding
BDSM?
John: "That's a pretty broad question. I'll just hit a few high
points. I accept that there are many roads in this Brave New World and
no one travels all of them. Heck, there are scenes that make me want to
look away and walk out of the dungeon, but if both people are aware of
the risks, accept them and consent, it is their business. I also like
people to recognize that "intense" and "good" are
not the same and to do a good scene one has to satisfy his or her needs
and the needs of his or her partner and the intensity level is
immaterial.
Sadie: Quite often novices think that a Dominant can just show up and
be competent, but that submissives need to be "trained" to be
a good submissive. In contrast, you write that, "I find that
dominants are much more in need of training as what they need to know is
more transferable." Training on this toy or that is a practical
thing to do, but teaching someone to know who they are and how to
Dominate is a different ball of wax. What are your thoughts on helping
novice Dominants develop these "soft" skills?
John: "Much of the time, this sort of thing cannot be taught. Much
of it is inherent in the individual. Sadly, bad fiction has created a
belief in a lot of novice dominants that they have to behave in a way
that is actually contrary to how they really feel. The cruel, unfeeling,
arrogant dominant can be a hot roleplay but it isn't a way to live (or
love.) Fortunately, off-line groups can also be places where people can
see dominants who can serve as role models."
Sadie: You write that "Doms do sometimes shortchange themselves
in an effort to be a 'good Dom.' I tell people "Doms have safewords
too." Can you explain what you mean by this?
John: "Many dominants feel that to be 'good doms' they have to do
everything. Well, nobody does everything, and attempting to do so is one
of the major causes of hard feelings and bad outcomes. Dominants who get
requests that they think are beyond their ability or even isn't of
interest to them shouldn't feel any obligation to comply.
Sadie: Some people feel that by definition the Master/slave
relationship is more "valid" than, say, a weekend warrior
style of D/s play. You expand on this in your comments, "When
people who prefer their play light or occasional are told that they aren’t
doing quality scenes, there is a temptation to extend play to levels
where neither of them are comfortable but are doing it because 'they
should.'" Why do you think that there is so much judging going on,
and what can we do to change this?
John: "The judging is often a matter of insecurity. People who
aren't secure in their scene sometimes build themselves up by trying to
tear others down. Changing it is often simply a matter of people saying
it's OK to take the path you want. Another way we can 'put the word out'
is through role modeling. Light, skillful players can be proud of the
way they play and let others know.
Sadie: Along the same lines, it seems like we sometimes demonize the
more edge players such as people who do blood or breath play, bestiality
and so on. This is a common cultural phenomenon when a group is looking
for legitimacy and certain subgroups don't help the cause. You can see
this in the gay/lesbian culture with fringe groups such as
cross-dressers often being criticized because they make the whole GLBTQ
identity less palatable to vanilla people. What are your feelings about
this?
John: "Anyone who thinks we can make people like the Concerned
Women of American like us by turning on people who play heavier than us
are living in a wonderful world. Unfortunately, it isn't the same one
most of the rest of us have to share. In fact, this sort of thing is
exactly what the Right wants. Reverend Niomoler learned that in Germany
during the war. As long as we don't protest when 'they' come for 'them,'
eventually, there may be no one to protest when 'they' come for 'us.'
Sadie: You write in The Loving Dominant about how Dominants often
believe that a BDSM relationship will be "easy" because the
sub will do whatever they tell them to. This is a common misconception.
Why do you suppose that people who otherwise would understand the
complexities of human relationships would simplify the D/s one so much?
Is this wishful thinking?
John: "Much of it is the fiction. Bad BDSM fiction paints a picture
of lazy doms and hard working submissive. Some of the worst offenders
are books like the Gor series and The Story of O. They can be hot, but
they aren't realistic. To learn BDSM from them is like trying to become
an infantryman by reading Sargent Rock comic books."
Sadie: You write in the introduction to The Loving Dominant some
comments about your spiritual approach to BDSM: "This transfer of
power doesn't just have to be at the physical level of 'You must do
this' and 'You can't do that.' It can be on a much deeper spiritual
level. Shortly after becoming my lover, Isobel showed me an ancient
Hindu drawing of a couple making love; curved and straight lines led
from various parts of one body, called Chakras, to the comparable parts
of the other's. She explained that they represented energy transfers the
Hindus believed took place during sex. As I looked at the picture, I
realized that during the scene I felt this energy transfer but hadn't
considered visualizing it in such a way. In some kind of metaphysical
way, she seemed to be sending me a force that I returned to her through
my actions in the scene." Do you have a sense of spiritual themes
in your private BDSM play? Is this something you integrate into your
scenes?
John: "It's hard to talk about "integrating" this into my
scenes. It's like asking if I integrate breathing into my daily life. It
isn't something that's conscious."
Sadie: You and Libby are both actively into poly relationships, you
being a heterosexual Dominant and she being a bi-switch. What kind of
agreements and boundaries have you set up to make this kind of complex
relationship work?
John: "Lots! First off, I'll recommend an excellent book
"The Ethical Slut" by Catherine Lizst (Janet Hardy) and Dossie
Easton. It's a wonderful help for anyone in a poly relationship or for
anyone contemplating one. As for ourselves, the primary rule is that the
core relationship comes before anything else. All the 'rules' are built
around that. For example, if someone wants to play with Libby or myself,
he or she has to get permission from the other. This lets each of us
know what the other is doing and with whom. Each of us has a veto on the
play of the other. We're also very much in love with each other and this
is the lubricant that makes the whole thing work so smoothly."
Sadie: The second edition of The Loving Dominant recently came out,
with some updates from you. Having now been with your partner Libby for
ten years, how have you found your relationship growing and changing in
the BDSM sphere?
John: "On February 19th 1992, I got an email saying only 'I think
we share some interests in common.' A week later, Libby and I met. We've
been together ever since. It's been a lot like a mountain over time. It
starts out with a lot of peaks reaching high into the sky and then it
weathers down to smoother surfaces and mist covered hillsides. Maybe the
scenery isn't as awe inspiring but it is still beautiful."
Sadie: Your relationship is unusual in that it has lasted so long. It
does seem that many relationships in the scene burn brightly and then
burn out. What kinds of suggestions would you give to help people cope
with the profound difference between a vanilla relationship and one
which incorporates the D/s element?
John: "Actually, there aren't big differences. It's more important
that people do what makes them feel comfortable than to try to fit the
relationship into some kind of predefined limits. This also allows the
relationship to change and grow over time."
Sadie: You've written that, "I've seen a lot of BDSM
relationships, with and without love, but in most cases the 'no love'
group aren't all that long lasting" Considering how many flavors of
BDSM there are, it seems like quite the challenge to even date someone
you like in the scene, much less find someone really compatible that you
can also love. What advice can you give to people looking for a
committed BDSM relationship?
John: "It is a hard search since we all have vanilla needs and then
requiring that the person have complementary BDSM interests is
difficult. Libby's advice to women is 'make a list of the top five
things you want in a man. When you find someone with one of them, grab
him.' I'm not sure I'll go that far, but I do know a lot of people who
have such a long list that it's unlikely they will ever find someone.
Part of life is learning to make compromises. Another thing is I
recommend that people take part in off-line groups. While it is unlikely
that someone will find his or her perfect person at the first meeting,
when you are mining for gold, you go to gold country. By taking part of
groups, one also builds a reputation and this can greatly increase the
chance of meeting an acceptable partner."
Sadie: What is the role that Libby plays in your personal growth?
John: "We are a team. It's hard to factor out anything where she's
involved since she is as much a part of my world as the air I breathe.
Suffice it to say that she's my rock. With her as a 'safe place' I feel
free to explore and make changes."
Sadie: You and Libby met online, but you have said that you are
"leery of that method since it is so easy to deceive in this
medium." The Internet seems to have brought both a great freedom to
our community as well as a great danger. What are your thoughts on the
role of the Internet to our growing community?
John: "Your comment of freedom and danger are right on the money.
The very anonymity that makes the internet so valuable to someone
exploring their feelings can be a shield for those with baser intents.
As with everything in BDSM, the important thing is to be aware of risks
and think seriously about which are acceptable and which are not."
Sadie: I have observed there is an unusual amount of politics
clogging up our community. My theory is that this is exacerbated because
we all have an underlying interest in the power exchange. In your work
with various national groups and your wife Libby's work with the
national Leather Leadership Council, you must surely have run into a
fair bit of this. Do you agree with my assessment? What do you think
would help us to "all get along?"
John: "My feeling is that the politics are so intense because the
reward are so small. After all, being a "leader" in our
community provides only the tiniest amount of power and rarely more than
a red cent. This means that the battles themselves become the goal. It
isn't pretty but it seems to be reality."
Sadie: Thank you for speaking with me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sensuous
Sadie is the author of It's Not
About the Whip: Love, Sex, and Spirituality in the BDSM Scene (http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0551.html).
She is the founder and leader (1999 - 2001) of
Rose
&
Thorn
,
Vermont
's first BDSM group.
Comments, compliments and complaints, as well as requests for reprinting
can be addressed to her at SensuousSadie@aol.com
or visit her website at www.sensuoussadie.com. Sadie believes the universe is abundant, and that sharing information
freely is part of this abundance, so she allows reprints of her writing
in most venues.
Copyright
2003 Sadie Sez Publications
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